Some links and thought for Chrissy Boy

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Some links and thought for Chrissy Boy

Post  PeterT on January 11th 2014, 10:48

Following our discussion you might want to check out this link

http://www.warrioronline.demon.co.uk/OTWGames/otwgames.htm

'Over the Wire' games is a little thing run by Warrior Miniatures who I think are based in Scotland. A lot of their stuff is right up your street in terms of being RPG/Adventure gaming type stuff.

All the games and supplements are really dirt cheap when you consider you also normally get 10 or so 28mm figures chucked in their £12 sets.

As well as the Wild West and Samurai stuff I mentioned, there is is a Pirate, 18th century naval, two different Fantasy sets and a couple of intriguing sets of WW2 sets - one a sort of Dad's Army affair, the other aimed at giving a game more based on the old Action Comics like Warlord and Battle so where your figures are guys like Boffer Jenkins or Ozzie Taylor and you get to spray the Dirty Nips and Square-head Krauts with the 'DA-DA-DA-DA' of machine guns and 'KaPOW!' of grenades while they shout back 'Bazai' and 'Hande Hoche, Britisher Pig Dog!' at you.

I was very impressed with the Wild West game - very different, very innovative. Figures looked nice too. I was thinking of order a set myself, but got spoilt for choice and couldn't decide how many sets to order! Lol!

PeterT

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Re: Some links and thought for Chrissy Boy

Post  PeterT on January 11th 2014, 13:23

On the subject of melee combat, a series of rulebooks that I used to sell which used to come from West Wind (and may have been published by Old Glory) were all used to be based around using polydice in opposed rolls. 

They called them quality dice. From memory average trained soldier rolled a D8. A civilian/non-combatant rolled a D4, a green soldier a D6, a veteran a D10, and an elite/hero type a D12. I think in the Vampire Wars version your Vampire Lord got to roll a D20.

It is quite easy to flex this system some more, with DMs etc., and you could have different values for attack and defence.

You could also use dice score difference to resolve wound levels/hit points inflicted. 

Again certain characters/weapons might get damage bonuses if they hit (but no DM if they don't)

I remember reading rules writer Larry Bromhead writing something on his melee rules for 'Sword and the Flame' Colonial rules. He said people has criticised his melee rules for slowing everything down (every pair of figures in the unit dice and then determine if figure is killed or just pushed back). What he said was he did this quite deliberately because he thought, inspired by the old Colonial movies like Four Feathers etc., he wanted the 'desperate melee' to be the climax of the battle. He said he could tell when someone was playing one of his games at a club etc. because he could hear the players shouting out 'Yes!' or -Oh No!- for about five minutes when they reached the melee stage.

Applying that in general terms to a Western gunfight, the whole mechanism works well in Desperado in giving you the right 'feel' for shooting. Percentage dice give you an instant idea of if you've made a good or bad shot, but you have to wait a minute or so to see if it just clipped him or yer bad guys goes down heavy and bleeding.

So in melee you want something that also gives you the right feel. Thinking of the average western the typical melee whether a bar room brawl, knife fight or just someone trying to smash someone's head in with a rifle, tend to be fast and furious. So maybe you want to have three opposed rolls one after another. As the game is initiative based you might want to keep this to the one guy attacking and the other defending in their turn. This might give you a good range of results from the defender blocking all three, to the attacker knocking the guy down in the first round and giving him a good kicking with the other two, or wading into three guys at once and trying to smack them all down. A big difference on opposing rolls in the defenders favour could allow them to strike back, but normally it would be the attacker having a go and the defender waiting for their turn to have a go back.

If you wanted to finesse the damage more you might want to have a damage table for different weapon types. A stomach wound leaving the guy bleeding out might seem right for someone attacking with a knife, but sounds ridiculous if the guy is attacking with a a rifle but or his fists.

You also might want to give a chance for characters to recover damage taken in melee. A lot of it is 'stun' damage. You want some guys getting back on their feet and getting back in the fray.

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Re: Some links and thought for Chrissy Boy

Post  PeterT on January 11th 2014, 14:06

...and don't forget we want bullwhips!!!

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Re: Some links and thought for Chrissy Boy

Post  Chrissy Boy on January 13th 2014, 23:21

Cheers Pete, made for an interesting read.

They called them quality dice. From memory average trained soldier rolled a D8. A civilian/non-combatant rolled a D4, a green soldier a D6, a veteran a D10, and an elite/hero type a D12. wrote:

I like that idea, I hadn't thought of using different dice for different quality troops.

Ultimately I think your right in saying that im going to need a new damage table for melee. The shooting one doesn't quite work for it.

CB
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Re: Some links and thought for Chrissy Boy

Post  PeterT on January 17th 2014, 02:21

No, hit location is always a problem in melee. When shooting there is a pretty random element (shot drifts), and although it can in melee two a completely random distribution never seems to have the right feel eg. if you attack someone with a battleaxe are the chances of hitting a foot the same as hitting head, shoulder or chest? Might be a funny outcome to have once, but not the fifth time. Seen various hit location systems used in RPGs, but in melee orientated ones especially they end up getting dropped.

Read an interesting article once disputing one of the claims once made that most casualties in a Napoleonic battle were caused by shooting. The article pointed out that these stats were based on rosters of wounds treated at casualty stations. The article pointed out that a much higher proportion of casualties from firing made it to the casualty stations eg. leg and arm wounds. Bayonets in particular cause chest and stomach wounds, and on the Napoleonic battlefield you basically weren't likely to make it back to the casualty station with one or a pair of those! So different types of weapons very different types of wound outcomes.

Probably the most ambitious attempt I've every seen to simulate all the nuances of melee combat was the personal combat rules in an RPG called Chivalry and Sorcery. About 12 different armour categories and different on different parts of the body. Weapons not only distinguished by hit modifier damage and potential to cause a critical hit, but also cross referenced and classifed on whether they crushed, slashed or impaled, and combat included a number of attacks per round, often all with attack rolls, parry rolls, shield parry rolls, dodge rolls, normal damage, critical hits-which took you to another table, and 'bash' damage and grappling all handled differently. Took about half an hour just to compute combat stats for your character. Once you got the hang of it, combat actually worked quite well but took about four readings to get the rules right and everyone's first melee took about 45 minutes for four rounds!

Opposed dice though can be used quite cleverly and some rules pick up on this. For example, you get not just one die  higher or lower than another, you also get a differential, and a total and the two different scores themselves to play around with. For example, what about 'bashing' ie. knocking the other character around? How about if the total is an odd number the loser is 'knocked back', if even they remain toe-to-toe. Add to this, say if the winner has also scored a 'high' score roll (eg. 6 on D6) and you could say on a 'knock back' it also means a 'knock down'. I mentioned earlier you could use a 'low' roll (eg. a 1 on a D6) as a 'fumble', if you went with the idea I suggested earlier the character having the initiative rolls a number of attacks and the opposition just rolls to defend a fumble roll by the attacker could give the defender one attack roll back, fumble roll by the defender could give the attacker one extra attack. Then you got doubles, could mean a ''locked' combat, ie. bit of grappling, with maybe the next combat handled differently eg. differential on next die roll could be used to determine if one character gets disarmed or maybe thrown right over and maybe defender as well as attacker gets to inflict damage. All nice variations from just the way two dice fall rather than going the Chivalry & Sorcery route of rolling about four or five times for hits, parries, dodges etc., etc.

Had some ideas on how to put this together, but getting late, so will leave you to ponder first.

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